2012 Extension/Enhancement increment changes

[vexx]

Does this affect people who are in year 12 2012?

yep, next year is the last year of the 4, 5 or 5.5
id hate to be you

Oh crap... I'm going to do UMEP anyway, cos it sounds fun!

it is

defs do it!

[AzureBlue]

Approved Higher Education studies in schools - an expansion of the previous Extension Studies program
The VCAA provides for very able students to have an opportunity to undertake some approved Higher Education study as part of the VCE. Such studies are recognised as Higher Education studies contributing to completion of the VCE.

If you are undertaking such a study, it may count as an increment in the ATAR provided that it is passed, that VCAA co-requisite or prerequisite conditions were met, and subject to the restricted study combinations below. An increment will be awarded for the Higher Education study. The increment is calculated as 10% of the average of the primary four.

Note: From 2012 Higher Education studies will include firstyear university studies and advanced standing TAFE courses recognised by the VCAA and made available to VCE students who are very able academically and have the endorsement of their school principal. Upon satisfactory completion, these studies will be counted as an increment in the calculation of the ATAR. The increment will be calculated as 10% of the average of the primary four studies, which is the same calculation used for non-scorable VET studies.

==> Does this imply that you get the average of your primary 4 no matter what you score in your UMEP subject? In other words, does someone who gets a pass get the same as someone who gets a H1A, provided they have the same average of their primary 4?

==> Is it the average of your primary 4 raw or scaled?

==> Goodbye 5.5.

[vexx]

^ yep a pass is a pass, that is it, similar to some VET courses, and it will most likely be raw scoring.

still, it's a uni subject, you can get credit for it and start second year stuff right away or just use it to take a cruisey year, that's the best part about it i reckon.

[AzureBlue]

Ok, so unfortunately it doesn't give a solid VCE bonus anymore, but still it gives me the opportunity to take a 2nd year subject in place of Accel Maths 1! And there's no benefit to getting a really good result on UMEP subjects apart from the fact that it looks good on your academic transcript?

[chem-nerd]

Pretty sure it is scaled scoring.

The system has (most likely) changed as a result of the Bradley Review, which will prompt even more serious changes to tertiary education in years to come.

[brightsky]

And there's no benefit to getting a really good result on UMEP subjects apart from the fact that it looks good on your academic transcript? WHY did they change the system???!!!! I liked the 4, 5, 5.5 idea.

Same. In key with all the scaling business, shouldn't students who do well in Uni subjects be rewarded, instead of simply allowing one's results in other studies be the sole determinant for your result?

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult Mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods (CAS) is compared to Further Mathematics and scaled up if necessary. Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods (CAS) and scaled up if necessary.

...yet the scores of doing first year Uni subjects are the same as a VET subject.

[EvangelionZeta]

And there's no benefit to getting a really good result on UMEP subjects apart from the fact that it looks good on your academic transcript? WHY did they change the system???!!!! I liked the 4, 5, 5.5 idea.

Same. In key with all the scaling business, shouldn't students who do well in Uni subjects be rewarded, instead of simply allowing one's results in other studies be the sole determinant for your result?

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult Mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods (CAS) is compared to Further Mathematics and scaled up if necessary. Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods (CAS) and scaled up if necessary.

...yet the scores of doing first year Uni subjects are the same as a VET subject.

The thing is, doing well in Uni subjects isn't particularly difficult.  I can sort of see where they're coming from in saying the 5.5 isn't entirely justified, given the amount of work it needs to get it compared to getting the actual 5.5 (which is impossible anyway).

[andrewloppol]

And there's no benefit to getting a really good result on UMEP subjects apart from the fact that it looks good on your academic transcript? WHY did they change the system???!!!! I liked the 4, 5, 5.5 idea.

Same. In key with all the scaling business, shouldn't students who do well in Uni subjects be rewarded, instead of simply allowing one's results in other studies be the sole determinant for your result?

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult Mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods (CAS) is compared to Further Mathematics and scaled up if necessary. Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods (CAS) and scaled up if necessary.

...yet the scores of doing first year Uni subjects are the same as a VET subject.

The thing is, doing well in Uni subjects isn't particularly difficult.  I can sort of see where they're coming from in saying the 5.5 isn't entirely justified, given the amount of work it needs to get it compared to getting the actual 5.5 (which is impossible anyway).

How can you say they're not particularly difficult? All UMEP subjects are different though? And they're designed to be a challenge?
I heard UMEP Philosophers are happy to pass, whereas I'm annoyed at my current 5.0.

[Riny]

And there's no benefit to getting a really good result on UMEP subjects apart from the fact that it looks good on your academic transcript? WHY did they change the system???!!!! I liked the 4, 5, 5.5 idea.

Same. In key with all the scaling business, shouldn't students who do well in Uni subjects be rewarded, instead of simply allowing one's results in other studies be the sole determinant for your result?

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult Mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods (CAS) is compared to Further Mathematics and scaled up if necessary. Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods (CAS) and scaled up if necessary.

...yet the scores of doing first year Uni subjects are the same as a VET subject.

The thing is, doing well in Uni subjects isn't particularly difficult.  I can sort of see where they're coming from in saying the 5.5 isn't entirely justified, given the amount of work it needs to get it compared to getting the actual 5.5 (which is impossible anyway).

It depends, I would say a study score of 55 would be way too much, but an increment of 5.5 isn't so out of proportion. No matter how much work you do or don't do to get your uni mark, it only counts for a very small percentage of your final mark as it is.

How much will it affect your score in the end? I went to the ATAR calculator and put in my year 12 results, which in 2009 would be calculated to be 98.65. I then changed the increment from 5.5 to 4.0 (even though my increment would have been more like 4.4) and got 98.45. It changes things enough to be potentially significant, but not huge.

[AzureBlue]

It doesn't make sense how people who get a pass get the same increment to people with, say like a 100. If I only cared about my VCE (which I don't as Accel Maths 1 is a compulsory subject in my uni course) then I would focus more heavily on my VCE studies as I know that getting a really high score on UMEP won't count at all.

2008:
99.8 = 203.3
99.9 = 206.4 +

2009:
99.8 = 201.9
99.9 = 205.6 +

[vexx]

^ You're doing specialist and Chinese, clearly you cannot complain about scaling issues haha >_>

[kenhung123]

Is there any particular reason why you want 99.95?

[brightsky]

Now I need like a 50 50 50 50 5 5... or something really close to that after scaling... FML... and I'm not even doing Latin or French

I do hope the cut-offs will drop accordingly.

The thing is, doing well in Uni subjects isn't particularly difficult.  I can sort of see where they're coming from in saying the 5.5 isn't entirely justified, given the amount of work it needs to get it compared to getting the actual 5.5 (which is impossible anyway).

Probably the workload isn't as much as normal VCE subjects but when you compare Uni Maths with the other maths subjects offered at a high school level, the jump probably does justify a 5.5. As andrewloppol said, it really depends on what Uni subject you're doing. And even if the 5.5 isn't justified, a 10% increment for a pass is more so. As AzureBlue said, there is no distinction between getting a 100% and just making the cut for a pass.

[m@tty]

Does anyone know what the 99.95 aggregate cut-off last year was just out of interest?

209.1

[EvangelionZeta]

Now I need like a 50 50 50 50 5 5... or something really close to that after scaling... FML... and I'm not even doing Latin or French

I do hope the cut-offs will drop accordingly.

The thing is, doing well in Uni subjects isn't particularly difficult.  I can sort of see where they're coming from in saying the 5.5 isn't entirely justified, given the amount of work it needs to get it compared to getting the actual 5.5 (which is impossible anyway).

Probably the workload isn't as much as normal VCE subjects but when you compare Uni Maths with the other maths subjects offered at a high school level, the jump probably does justify a 5.5. As andrewloppol said, it really depends on what Uni subject you're doing. And even if the 5.5 isn't justified, a 10% increment for a pass is more so. As AzureBlue said, there is no distinction between getting a 100% and just making the cut for a pass.

Not going to say I'm speaking truth since I don't actually do it, but from experience reasonably kids often don't do any work for Uni Maths, cram right before the exam and get 5.5.  People say other subjects are like this too: off the top of my head, I know people who have said UMEP Linguistics, MUEP Japanese, MUEP Maths and UMEP Maths are easier than their VCE equivalents, fairly straightforward to get at least 5.0 in, and comparatively easy to get 5.5 in.  I'd like to see evidence of Uni subjects actually being "difficult" to do well in compared to a VCE subject.

I will also come out and say that getting a 5.5 in Uni Philosophy is a LOT easier (or seems a lot easier) than getting 40+ in VCE Philosophy.

How can you say they're not particularly difficult? All UMEP subjects are different though? And they're designed to be a challenge?
I heard UMEP Philosophers are happy to pass, whereas I'm annoyed at my current 5.0.

Designed to be a challenge doesn't mean WILL be a challenge.  This is inductive reasoning again, but just about everyone I've talked to has said their Uni subject is easier than the VCE equivalent.  Also, it's a small sample space, but about 30% of the kids taking Uni Philosophy at Monash get 5.5.  

It depends, I would say a study score of 55 would be way too much, but an increment of 5.5 isn't so out of proportion. No matter how much work you do or don't do to get your uni mark, it only counts for a very small percentage of your final mark as it is.

How much will it affect your score in the end? I went to the ATAR calculator and put in my year 12 results, which in 2009 would be calculated to be 98.65. I then changed the increment from 5.5 to 4.0 (even though my increment would have been more like 4.4) and got 98.45. It changes things enough to be potentially significant, but not huge.

1. Your point about it counting for very little works both ways - it's not like changing this is going to make a massive difference to most people's ATARs, so why all the fuss about making it slightly more balanced?

2. ATAR is relative - the amount of Uni extension students probably won't affect the cut-offs THAT much, but I'd imagine if everyone lost the "broken" 5.5, then the cutoffs might go down a few decimal points (ie. enough to accomodate for most the loss of .2 ATAR that you reported).  

It doesn't make sense how people who get a pass get the same increment to people with, say like a 100. If I only cared about my VCE (which I don't as Accel Maths 1 is a compulsory subject in my uni course) then I would focus more heavily on my VCE studies as I know that getting a really high score on UMEP won't count at all.

I think this addresses a key issue here.  Doing a Uni Extension subject shouldn't be about getting the ATAR - it should be about the experience of an early Uni education, and the fact that some students just do it to get an easy 5.5, then "hack" their way through the course means that it's undermining the purpose of the program.  As for the point about the pass being worth less than say 100, it actually STILL is the case, given that Unis can use your extension subjects in your academic transcript (which is where it SHOULD count anyway).  Sure, somebody could just cruise through and achieve a bare pass, but then they can't sit back on an awesome Uni subject score for when they hit tertiary education.

Yeah but the maths subjects scale way less than before and so does Chinese I think (and now they're removing the 5.5 increment from UMEP)... I wonder what's going to happen next. At least the aggregates for 99.9 are going down (probably for the above reasons).

ATAR is relative.  If the scaling goes down, so does the required aggregate for every ATAR.