ATAR Notes: Forum

General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: Water on March 29, 2011, 04:25:35 pm

Title: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Water on March 29, 2011, 04:25:35 pm
Do You Agree Or Disagree?


Penny Wong, a minister of the federal parliament, a gay person herself was denounced when she was against Gay Marriage. Has the Australia public been all caught up with the hysteria, and gone back to the days of Hippy to protect the minority regardless of the consequences. Or is Gay Marriage Justifiable and should be legislated?



Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: chrisjb on March 29, 2011, 04:45:34 pm
Penny Wong is my favourite politician :D

As for your question, I think gay marriage is justifiable. The one argument that has any weight against gay marriage is that marriage is an institution of the church and that therefore the church should decide. However, I don't think that marriage is an institution of the church any more. I completely understand that the church should decide who can have a ceremony in a chapel with a pastor, but as for getting the bit of paper that says you're married, I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't happen.

I don't think we're getting caught up in hysteria. I just think some people are trying to make the world a nicer place to live.

Also, just because penny wong is a lesbian doesn't mean she has to conform to leftist, "hippy" lesbian stereotypes. She can believe whatever the hell she wants.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on March 29, 2011, 06:00:11 pm
If you disagree with gay marriage, don't have one.

I think the thing that tends to get ignored in this debate is that stopping a group of people from doing something that other groups of people are allowed to do creates a sense of exclusion and that there is something wrong with them. For me the answer is to either abolish the instituion of marriage together, or open it up to be less exclusionary. Just because one gay person doesn't want to get married, doesn't mean that other gay people shouldn't be given that choice.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on March 29, 2011, 08:12:49 pm
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Ghost! on March 29, 2011, 09:28:20 pm
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.

This entirely.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mao on April 01, 2011, 01:45:19 am
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.

By the same logic, can I argue for polygamy?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on April 01, 2011, 01:49:53 pm
^ I think so. As long as it's not exploitative, sometimes polygamy is.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Water on April 01, 2011, 05:54:20 pm
^ I think so. As long as it's not exploitative, sometimes polygamy is.

Can we legalize Incest Marriage as well?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: iNerd on April 01, 2011, 07:23:42 pm
^ I think so. As long as it's not exploitative, sometimes polygamy is.

Can we legalize Incest Marriage as well?
No...ew.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Bonifacio on April 02, 2011, 09:24:09 am
Mao makes a good point, all of your points in here can be used to defend incestuous marriage. ATAR, why is your reaction towards incestuous marriage any more justifiable then my same reaction towards gay marriage?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: iNerd on April 02, 2011, 09:49:33 am
Mao makes a good point, all of your points in here can be used to defend incestuous marriage. ATAR, why is your reaction towards incestuous marriage any more justifiable then my same reaction towards gay marriage?
Um maybe because two gay people aren't blood-related and don't live together from birth onwards?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on April 02, 2011, 10:09:32 am
That's a social taboo not an actual reason.
If incestuous couples don't have kids, there really aren't a lot of reasons other than "ewww" to say it's wrong
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on April 02, 2011, 02:59:24 pm
^ I think so. As long as it's not exploitative, sometimes polygamy is.

Can we legalize Incest Marriage as well?
Sure. Again though, incest can have an element of unequal power in it, so you'd have to be careful about that.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Glockmeister on April 04, 2011, 10:58:20 pm
Depends how far you go in terms of your family tree.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that incest and the potential progeny that may result from it could lead to offspring with genetic diseases due to lack of diversity in the genetic pool. The contrary argument isn't the same with homosexual marriages. 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MuggedByReality on April 04, 2011, 11:06:40 pm

  I am against the idea of marriage conferring exalted status or monetary incentives, however I'm fully behind gay couples having the same rights as hetero couples.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Nomvalt on April 05, 2011, 05:23:54 am
Depends how far you go in terms of your family tree.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that incest and the potential progeny that may result from it could lead to offspring with genetic diseases due to lack of diversity in the genetic pool. The contrary argument isn't the same with homosexual marriages. 

I heard a similar statistic with marrying and conceiving a child with someone of the opposite sex ifrom the same town and race. That is, it slightly increases the chances of birth defects occurring in any one of their offsprings.

However still many prominent scientists have undertook incestuous marriages. Notably, Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein both of whom married their first cousins.

But is this enough justification to ban marriages between people of the same ethnicity?

On the other hand, what about if someone also wanted to marry an animal too? Why should they be denied the right?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MuggedByReality on April 05, 2011, 06:48:11 am
Depends how far you go in terms of your family tree.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that incest and the potential progeny that may result from it could lead to offspring with genetic diseases due to lack of diversity in the genetic pool. The contrary argument isn't the same with homosexual marriages.  

I heard a similar statistic with marrying and conceiving a child with someone of the opposite sex ifrom the same town and race. That is, it slightly increases the chances of birth defects occurring in any one of their offsprings.

However still many prominent scientists have undertook incestuous marriages. Notably, Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein both of whom married their first cousins.

But is this enough justification to ban marriages between people of the same ethnicity?

On the other hand, what about if someone also wanted to marry an animal too? Why should they be denied the right?

   The issue of consent :P
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on April 05, 2011, 08:18:03 am
Yes let's allow people to marry animals! Cos the dog is capable of giving informed consent, and understanding and signing a marriage certificate!! Also, comparing homosexuals to animals is totally appropriate.

*sigh*
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on April 05, 2011, 08:56:27 am
Depends how far you go in terms of your family tree.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that incest and the potential progeny that may result from it could lead to offspring with genetic diseases due to lack of diversity in the genetic pool. The contrary argument isn't the same with homosexual marriages. 

Yeah obviously having kids with someone closer than a 2nd cousin is limiting your gene pool but like I said; if they don't have kids, there really aren't any reasons to prevent incest

Quote
I heard a similar statistic with marrying and conceiving a child with someone of the opposite sex ifrom the same town and race. That is, it slightly increases the chances of birth defects occurring in any one of their offsprings.

This is just because usually a small town has a limited gene pool, a la the founder effect. The Amish are a perfect example of it, they have high frequencies of otherwise rare genes.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Nomvalt on April 05, 2011, 10:31:53 am
Okay, I don't know many gay people (or openly gay) in real life so homosexuality is a bit of a myth for me.

What exactly are the causes for homosexuality? How many gay people do you personally know? :police:

I heard that almost anyone could wake up the next day and 'turn gay' by accident and however and then become straight again the next day.

Still I think there needs to be more scientific research/evidence if people want to condone homosexual marriages in society. There's just too much things that we don't currently know about it and of the possible severe long-term repercussions of making homosexual marriages legal within society.

There are people who describe homosexuality as being subhuman and it being a personal choice for them. For example, in Rove I remember a while back he used to have these segments where he would ask his guests who they would turn gay for just for fun. I'm not sure how seriously he took it by this suggests that he believes that it's a personal decision or at least for some people.

But if it isn't a personal choice, is it reasonable for society to expect them to live a life of celibacy? Is this too much of a burden?

Also, if there is a genetic component for the cause of homosexuality, in the long-run would homosexuals embracing homosexual marriages lead to a decrease in the amount of offspring that society produces that will become homosexuals (as this means they will not impregnate women or themselves with these homosexual genes)?

I also don't know much about genetics but hope the above points society out in the right direction. :)
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Nomvalt on April 05, 2011, 10:35:57 am
Yes let's allow people to marry animals! Cos the dog is capable of giving informed consent, and understanding and signing a marriage certificate!! Also, comparing homosexuals to animals is totally appropriate.

*sigh*

ninwa, it's not that uncommon.
I think this is what people fear most, that condoning homosexual marriages will lead to a drastic change in society's traditional moral Christian values and allow such things to occur.

There will be people who will say:
"I don't care about informed consent. Bring me that animal I want to marry it!"
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Nomvalt on April 05, 2011, 10:43:32 am
Quote
In the first week of January 2006, Sharon Tendler, a British citizen in her forties, married Cindy the dolphin. She said there was nothing perverted about it; she just loves the animal and wants it to have a happy life. The wedding ceremony was simple. Sharon just wore white and gave her love a kiss and a herring. The incident excited the western world so much that it was a hot topic of debate for weeks.

 It did not bother us Indians much. Of course, the "westernized" among us talked a great deal about it. The ones who would find nothing absurd about an animal-human marriage probably still haven't heard of it. Anyway, we have stories in our myths about members of the royal family marrying serpents. It used to happen all the time; nothing strange about it. Many a time, marrying a dog, a plant, or some such creature is considered to be the only way to ward off a curse or to correct a flaw in your horoscope.

 In November 1977, an Indian in his thirties married a dog. He was not in love with the animal like Sharon was with the dolphin. On the contrary, he had been a dog murderer in the past. Fifteen years ago, he had killed two dogs and, ever since, had been suffering from paralysis and loss of hearing. Marrying a dog was the only way he could atone for his sins.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Animal-human-Marriages

See. Though according to wikipedia it says human-animal marriages are not recognized in law by any country. So maybe they do it by secret or maybe it's not legal anymore or maybe wikipedia is wrong which wouldn't really be surprising at all.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on April 05, 2011, 02:45:03 pm
Okay, I don't know many gay people (or openly gay) in real life so homosexuality is a bit of a myth for me.

What exactly are the causes for homosexuality? How many gay people do you personally know? :police:

I heard that almost anyone could wake up the next day and 'turn gay' by accident and however and then become straight again the next day.

Still I think there needs to be more scientific research/evidence if people want to condone homosexual marriages in society. There's just too much things that we don't currently know about it and of the possible severe long-term repercussions of making homosexual marriages legal within society.

There are people who describe homosexuality as being subhuman and it being a personal choice for them. For example, in Rove I remember a while back he used to have these segments where he would ask his guests who they would turn gay for just for fun. I'm not sure how seriously he took it by this suggests that he believes that it's a personal decision or at least for some people.

But if it isn't a personal choice, is it reasonable for society to expect them to live a life of celibacy? Is this too much of a burden?

Also, if there is a genetic component for the cause of homosexuality, in the long-run would homosexuals embracing homosexual marriages lead to a decrease in the amount of offspring that society produces that will become homosexuals (as this means they will not impregnate women or themselves with these homosexual genes)?

I also don't know much about genetics but hope the above points society out in the right direction. :)
Why would someone choose homosexuality? Like, realistically, what would someone have to gain by that? Ignoring the genetics here, if you were living in a country where homosexuality is a punishable crime, you'd probably choose not to be homosexual, if you could. But gay people do exist in such countries. It doesn't seem to be a choice.

But even if it were a choice, I don't see how that even matters. Homosexual people are not hurting anyone by being homosexual, they have every right to be who they are, regardless of whether they have chosen to be gay or if it was some genetic thing.

So, I don't understand why the cause is important? And I really don't understand how not researching the cause could pose risks to society. What kind of risks are you thinking of?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Water on April 05, 2011, 04:33:37 pm
Nomwalt, that post just revealed our naive you actually are in the issue. And how can you possibly make reference to Rove, its a comedian's show for crikes sake! >;

The problem with gay marriage is, if we legislate it, then why can't we legislate polygamy, incest marriage or other taboos that do not threaten society as a whole. Summing it... When are we pushing over the silver lining.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on April 05, 2011, 05:39:47 pm
Quote
Also, if there is a genetic component for the cause of homosexuality, in the long-run would homosexuals embracing homosexual marriages lead to a decrease in the amount of offspring that society produces that will become homosexuals (as this means they will not impregnate women or themselves with these homosexual genes)?

If you don't like homosexuality then you should support gay marriage in order to prevent them from passing down any gay genes whilst "in the closet".
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Nomvalt on April 06, 2011, 12:08:19 am
If you don't like homosexuality then you should support gay marriage in order to prevent them from passing down any gay genes whilst "in the closet".

haha, was just trolling around no need to take me 2 seriously all the time.
i suppose theres nothing wrong with gay marriage. think the only problem really comes from religion which discourages these zorts of things.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on April 06, 2011, 07:28:54 pm
can i extend that to the rest of your posts, because I can't see much of a difference between them
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: /0 on April 07, 2011, 05:37:22 am
It all comes down to consent. Same-sex marriage, polygamous marriage, and even marriage between relatives is fine, so long as everybody involved is capable of giving consent and chooses to give it.

Also, marriage and child-bearing are two separate issues. I get really annoyed when people implore us to "think of the children" when talking about marriage. It is not relevant! For example, if it's illegal for siblings to procreate, then it shouldn't make a difference whether or not they are married.
So really marriage is just a contract between consenting adults. It doesn't harm anyone and it won't destroy society.

As time has gone by, humans have increasingly embraced civil liberties and become more open-minded, and I think it's inevitable that this trend will continue. When something seems strange now, remember that many things we take for granted would have seemed just as strange in the past.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MuggedByReality on April 07, 2011, 07:08:07 am
It all comes down to consent. Same-sex marriage, polygamous marriage, and even marriage between relatives is fine, so long as everybody involved is capable of giving consent and chooses to give it.

Also, marriage and child-bearing are two separate issues. I get really annoyed when people implore us to "think of the children" when talking about marriage. It is not relevant! For example, if it's illegal for siblings to procreate, then it shouldn't make a difference whether or not they are married.
So really marriage is just a contract between consenting adults. It doesn't harm anyone and it won't destroy society.

As time has gone by, humans have increasingly embraced civil liberties and become more open-minded, and I think it's inevitable that this trend will continue. When something seems strange now, remember that many things we take for granted would have seemed just as strange in the past.

Agree with every word. One of my bugbears is when people completely conflate their personal sensibilities ("intermarrying is sooo unseemly!!!", "omg, women in burqas look so spooky!!!"), with their public policy perspective.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on April 07, 2011, 04:28:36 pm
(http://struckbyenlightning.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/gay-marriage-slippery-slope.jpeg)
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: berryy on November 10, 2011, 11:39:39 pm
it really has taken Australia too long to legalise same sex marriages
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: LOVEPHYSICS on November 15, 2011, 08:52:55 pm
Yes let's allow people to marry animals! Cos the dog is capable of giving informed consent, and understanding and signing a marriage certificate!! Also, comparing homosexuals to animals is totally appropriate.

*sigh*

Homosexuals are humans after all, unless you have any religious reservations against that. And human beings are animals, or more specifically, great apes. So its a valid case in point.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on November 15, 2011, 09:01:45 pm
It is in no possible way a valid case in point, and the only reason to say it is is to be obsessed with semantics.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 15, 2011, 09:02:32 pm
Yes let's allow people to marry animals! Cos the dog is capable of giving informed consent, and understanding and signing a marriage certificate!! Also, comparing homosexuals to animals is totally appropriate.

*sigh*

Homosexuals are humans after all, unless you have any religious reservations against that. And human beings are animals, or more specifically, great apes. So its a valid case in point.

nice try but the issue is consent, not semantics
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: LOVEPHYSICS on November 15, 2011, 09:39:43 pm
No, not semantics. I don't think you need a linguist to point it out. Yes the issue is consent, I am merely pointing out my belief that it is not inappropriate to compare the issue of marrying animals to that of gay marriages.

Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 15, 2011, 10:13:55 pm
So by your logic it is valid and productive to compare marrying animals to heterosexual marriages too.

1) what exactly is your point
2) how does this have anything to do with being against or for gay marriage
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: LOVEPHYSICS on November 15, 2011, 11:06:42 pm
1) Opens up the possibility to question why consent have to be made an issue, which is productive because it relates to 2), that is if we are to legislate for gay marriage, it is only fair to legislate for all the other social taboos that exist. And to me, there's more of a issue there given as you have previously asserted, and I have taken to be quite true, that there are no rational arguments against gay marriages specifically.

Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 17, 2011, 06:33:06 pm
1) are you seriously asking why consent of the involved parties should be an issue in determining whether this type of marriage is valid?

if we are to legislate for gay marriage, it is only fair to legislate for all the other social taboos that exist
such as?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Panicmode on November 17, 2011, 06:41:16 pm
1) are you seriously asking why consent of the involved parties should be an issue in determining whether this type of marriage is valid?

if we are to legislate for gay marriage, it is only fair to legislate for all the other social taboos that exist
such as?

Polygamy and incestuous marriage.

Not that I think there is any problem with gay marriage in the slightest. Just that this is the argument used against it.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 17, 2011, 07:03:54 pm
I don't see anything wrong with legalising polygamy and incestuous marriage as long as all parties are over the age of 18 and consent.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Thu Thu Train on November 17, 2011, 07:04:21 pm
I'm against marriage in general.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on November 17, 2011, 07:22:16 pm
Gay marriage should NOT be allowed.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Thu Thu Train on November 17, 2011, 07:43:39 pm
Gay marriage should NOT be allowed.
Why?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: vivj on November 17, 2011, 07:45:20 pm
All those people that say marriage is sacred and should be blessed, and so forth and so on, confuse me; why then, is there such a thing, as divorce?

In my eyes homosexuals are no different from the last. It doesn't feel like we're trying to achieve any idea of a just society if we're going to shut part of it out. The old-age fear is ... irrational. Basically that.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on November 17, 2011, 09:19:17 pm
Gay marriage should NOT be allowed.
Why?

Because marriage should be between a man and a woman.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on November 17, 2011, 09:23:20 pm
No, marriage should be between a man and a man, you're wrong!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on November 17, 2011, 09:33:16 pm
No, marriage should be between a man and a man, you're wrong!

Screw you, marriage should be between a pig and a goat!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on November 17, 2011, 10:12:15 pm
2), that is if we are to legislate for gay marriage, it is only fair to legislate for all the other social taboos that exist.
Slippery slope

Because marriage should be between a man and a woman.
How fucking original
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Thu Thu Train on November 17, 2011, 11:29:32 pm
No, marriage should be between a man and a man, you're wrong!

Screw you, marriage should be between a pig and a goat!
Marriage should be between two men and a blow up doll!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 18, 2011, 02:27:15 pm
Because marriage should be between a man and a woman.

/thread guys, forget all the discussion on previous pages, this argument wins

All those people that say marriage is sacred and should be blessed, and so forth and so on, confuse me; why then, is there such a thing, as divorce?

because those evil gays will DESTROY the sanctity of marriage!!!!!

Britney Spears' marriage lasted 55 hours but at least she's a god-fearing man-lover!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on November 18, 2011, 10:16:16 pm
1) Opens up the possibility to question why consent have to be made an issue, which is productive because it relates to 2), that is if we are to legislate for gay marriage, it is only fair to legislate for all the other social taboos that exist. And to me, there's more of a issue there given as you have previously asserted, and I have taken to be quite true, that there are no rational arguments against gay marriages specifically.


What taboo? Homosexuality isn't a taboo, it's normal.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: 99.99 on November 19, 2011, 11:32:48 am
The main argument religious people have against gay marriage is that the institution of marriage is not being respected and degraded as it was intended to be a man and a woman in love. Now, whilst I personally don't agree with this and feel that any two people in love are equal, you have to realise that in its present state, marriage has already been tarnished and degraded by heterosexual couples (Kim Kardash+High divorce rate etc). I feel that the original entity that was marriage is actually more respected by gay couples than hetero. Gay couples seem to, in my opinion, genuinely want to be married for love. The majority of straight couples are the same, they want to be in love for the next month and a half and thus get married....

My $0.02
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: weasleyisourking on November 20, 2011, 03:26:32 pm
This is how I see it.

In 20 years, the next generation will look back on us with disgust at the way gay people were segregated and marginalised, just like how we look back on the way African-American and Aboriginal people were legally discriminated against in the dark histories of our own country's pasts.

Essentially the gay marriage issue is an exercise in empathy and the extent of one's belief in what is the inalienable human right of equality.

I for one feel sick at the thought that such blatant prejudice still reigns in a country such as our own and I look forward to watching those who oppose gay marriage try to justify their position to their own children in 20 years time who will struggle to understand how their own parents who stood complacent in the midst of oppression.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: 99.99 on November 20, 2011, 03:42:08 pm
This is how I see it.

In 20 years, the next generation will look back on us with disgust at the way gay people were segregated and marginalised, just like how we look back on the way African-American and Aboriginal people were legally discriminated against in the dark histories of our own country's pasts.

Essentially the gay marriage issue is an exercise in empathy and the extent of one's belief in what is the inalienable human right of equality.

I for one feel sick at the thought that such blatant prejudice still reigns in a country such as our own and I look forward to watching those who oppose gay marriage try to justify their position to their own children in 20 years time who will struggle to understand how their own parents who stood complacent in the midst of oppression.

I disagree, homosexuality has been a hot-topic for 2000 years. Racism was not AFAIK.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: weasleyisourking on November 20, 2011, 03:55:51 pm
This is how I see it.

In 20 years, the next generation will look back on us with disgust at the way gay people were segregated and marginalised, just like how we look back on the way African-American and Aboriginal people were legally discriminated against in the dark histories of our own country's pasts.

Essentially the gay marriage issue is an exercise in empathy and the extent of one's belief in what is the inalienable human right of equality.

I for one feel sick at the thought that such blatant prejudice still reigns in a country such as our own and I look forward to watching those who oppose gay marriage try to justify their position to their own children in 20 years time who will struggle to understand how their own parents who stood complacent in the midst of oppression.

I disagree, homosexuality has been a hot-topic for 2000 years. Racism was not AFAIK.

Bigotry comes in many different forms. I'm not pretending to be an expert on world history - but slavery as a form of racism has existed since even before BC (over 2011 years ago)?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: acrimony on November 20, 2011, 04:34:56 pm
Many valid points were shared throughout this thread, but my point champions everything argued thus far.

I would like to ask you all to rid yourselves of any political correctness that plagues society today. You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: lexitu on November 20, 2011, 04:37:16 pm
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.

Again, this entirely. Anyone who believes in an ethics of autonomy would agree. The arguments against it are completely circular and just plain bullshit.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: lexitu on November 20, 2011, 04:41:19 pm
Many valid points were shared throughout this thread, but my point champions everything argued thus far.

I would like to ask you all to rid yourselves of any political correctness that plagues society today. You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.

Do you have a source on that?

I can pick many other potential differences between lions and humans by the way. For a start we are bipedal.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: acrimony on November 20, 2011, 04:46:32 pm
Many valid points were shared throughout this thread, but my point champions everything argued thus far.

I would like to ask you all to rid yourselves of any political correctness that plagues society today. You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.

Do you have a source on that?

I can pick many other potential differences between lions and humans by the way. For a start we are bipedal.

Do I have a source on what exactly? I'm sorry you have to be more direct. It's clever that you've observed humans walk on two feet, but I'm arguing the intimate relationships of humans compared to lions.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: lexitu on November 20, 2011, 04:49:17 pm
That lions always have sex with lionesses.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: acrimony on November 20, 2011, 04:53:01 pm
Do you have a source on humans being bipedal? I assume you just observed it. The same way one recognises a lions sexual patterns, by observing. I've also assumed you've been to a zoo before?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: mark_alec on November 20, 2011, 04:54:15 pm
You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.
1) Just because we haven't found genetic indicators doesn't mean they don't exist. You also need to account for epigenetic factors (c.f. left-handedness).
2) Even if nobody is "born" homosexual, why does that matter?
3) I guess you've never seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals ?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: lexitu on November 20, 2011, 05:01:24 pm
Do you have a source on humans being bipedal? I assume you just observed it. The same way one recognises a lions sexual patterns, by observing. I've also assumed you've been to a zoo before?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/efgw99hh0nj9r0mm/abstract/ - Find one of many articles here.

Yes I have been to a zoo. I went to Weribee Zoo a couple of years ago, and saw about 6 lions. I estimate i've seen many more than 100,000 different humans.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 20, 2011, 05:04:43 pm
Many valid points were shared throughout this thread, but my point champions everything argued thus far.

I would like to ask you all to rid yourselves of any political correctness that plagues society today. You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.

yo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

edit: specifically, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Lions
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on November 20, 2011, 05:10:14 pm
You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

You've never actually looked at any sort of evidence, have you?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on November 20, 2011, 05:20:07 pm
Many valid points were shared throughout this thread, but my point champions everything argued thus far.

I would like to ask you all to rid yourselves of any political correctness that plagues society today. You may say I am being ignorant, but the fact is ther is no genetic predisposition towards homosexuality; meaning they were not born gay.

Do you ever see a lion having sexual intercourse with another lion? Of course not because the lion is paired with a lioness.
Your point has trumped everything in this thread? Talk about the fucking Dunning-Kruger effect

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18536986
Yeap, clearly no biological factors are at play here.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Sickle on November 20, 2011, 05:52:02 pm
I don't have much to say on this issue.

I found this interesting though.

http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html

Thoughts, anyone?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:00:40 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 20, 2011, 06:12:29 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:20:06 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on November 20, 2011, 06:21:53 pm
I like to take the pacifist approach, yes, I accept people who are homosexual, and believe that same-sex couples should have all the rights and privileges that married couples get. However, I also respect the institution of marriage and religions who state that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I think we need another term to describe the union between a same-sex couple. Lawfully, they should have the same rights as a married couple, but I don't think we should call it marriage. Civil unions, I support :)

By tradition, marriage is kinda defined as the union b/w a man and a woman and also their families...etc.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:23:55 pm
I like to take the pacifist approach, yes, I accept people who are homosexual, and believe that same-sex couples should have all the rights and privileges that married couples get. However, I also respect the institution of marriage and religions who state that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I think we need another term to describe the union between a same-sex couple. Lawfully, they should have the same rights as a married couple, but I don't think we should call it marriage. Civil unions, I support :)

By tradition, marriage is kinda defined as the union b/w a man and a woman and also their families...etc.

You are the wisest person here!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on November 20, 2011, 06:25:16 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:30:44 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.

You should read dude, all I said is "I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted"

I didn't say they shouldn't get married, I didn't say I'm the one that's getting married nor!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Sickle on November 20, 2011, 06:34:53 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.

You should read dude, all I said is "I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted"

I didn't say they shouldn't get married, I didn't say I'm the one that's getting married nor!

Who else will be blamed, then? Who else is opposed?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on November 20, 2011, 06:37:43 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.

You should read dude, all I said is "I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted"

I didn't say they shouldn't get married, I didn't say I'm the one that's getting married nor!


You said "fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married." The implication of that being that you're against homosexuality because you wouldn't be gay yourself. If you didn't want me to think you were against gay marriage then you shouldn't have written that in...

Religious people are the primary opposition to the recognition of homosexual civil rights, hence why religion is often badmouthed in these situations.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:46:30 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.

You should read dude, all I said is "I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted"

I didn't say they shouldn't get married, I didn't say I'm the one that's getting married nor!


You said "fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married." The implication of that being that you're against homosexuality because you wouldn't be gay yourself. If you didn't want me to think you were against gay marriage then you shouldn't have written that in...

Religious people are the primary opposition to the recognition of homosexual civil rights, hence why religion is often badmouthed in these situations.

I can understand how you might have thought I was against homosexuals, but I'm not.
I'm not against homosexuals, as mentioned before, it's peoples emotions and feelings and I have no right nor enough knowledge to say what they are doing is wrong.

Yes, I do agree that most Religions are against homosexuality, I fail to believe that those Religions are against homosexuals. To be more specific, most religions are against the act not against the people.

 

Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on November 20, 2011, 06:49:46 pm
This argument can go on for decades, People's emotions and Life decisions are involved...

I consider myself to be very religious and fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married. But that is my opinion, what I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted! 

Oh please, don't start another bloody religious debate.

What's your problem with religion dude? And I didn't start a debate I was just saying my two cents worth, I didn't know I had to get your permission. 

So because you're religious, other people can't do what they want? It's not even a matter of whether or not you believe it's natural, it's the simple fact that two consenting adults should be able to do what they like without anybody else imposing their medieval beliefs upon them. So long as it doesn't negatively affect anybody else in the community I don't see the issue. You're not the one getting married to a man, so again, why does it matter?

Paul, marriage is no longer a religious institution. Since the Government started marrying people and as the act of marriage is in more than one religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) you can't use that as an excuse. If secular people can get married then homosexuals should be able too as well.

You should read dude, all I said is "I have an issue is with people bad mouthing religion and blaming religion and religious traditions for homosexuals/homosexual marriages not be accepted"

I didn't say they shouldn't get married, I didn't say I'm the one that's getting married nor!



You said "fail to understand how two people of the same sex can be together let alone get married." The implication of that being that you're against homosexuality because you wouldn't be gay yourself. If you didn't want me to think you were against gay marriage then you shouldn't have written that in...

Religious people are the primary opposition to the recognition of homosexual civil rights, hence why religion is often badmouthed in these situations.

I can understand how you might have thought I was against homosexuals, but I'm not.
I'm not against homosexuals, as mentioned before, it's peoples emotions and feelings and I have no right nor enough knowledge to say what they are doing is wrong.

Yes, I do agree that most Religions are against homosexuality, I fail to believe that those Religions are against homosexuals. To be more specific, most religions are against the act not against the people.

 



Well we have no argument then :P. Whether or not I agree / disagree with your religious beliefs is somewhat irrelevant as since you respect the civil liberties of the individual there really is nothing more to be said.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: knightstarr17 on November 20, 2011, 06:53:27 pm
I'm glad we could have come to some common ground :)
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on November 20, 2011, 08:32:30 pm
We emphasise on tolerance of differences too heavily. There has to be a limit, and gay marriage is that limit. If people choose to be gay, I have nothing against that. I don't understand why people need to get married to show their love to each other. Isn't living with each other enough? Marriage is overrated, dudes.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on November 20, 2011, 08:35:56 pm
Strangely enough some people would like to be considered equal to everybody else and have the same opportunities and benefits as others in the same situation.

Disgusting, I know.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MJRomeo81 on November 20, 2011, 08:51:36 pm
I can't stand when supporters of gay marriage say its discrimination. By discrimination they mean in violation of public policy -- it discriminates in an illegal way or it violates civil rights. The problem is there is no civil right to same-sex marriage.

Without exception, every adult in Australia already has a right to marry. But everyone also has restrictions on whom they may marry -- again, without exception. These restrictions apply equally to everyone; there is no discrimination involved.

The other problem is those who compare the issue with discrimination of race. I've never understood the analogy. Race is an immutable condition.

Marriage cannot be "redefined" into a right for homosexual couples. Marriage is what it is, the monogamous union of one man and one women, nothing else or other. Restricting one's choice of a marriage partner by gender preserves marriage as an institution that  builds bridges to bring men and women together to create future generations and serve the health of society.


I've always believed that denaturing marriage is just one more instance where making something "accessible to all" destroys what it once was.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on November 20, 2011, 09:24:39 pm
We emphasise on tolerance of differences too heavily. There has to be a limit, and gay marriage is that limit. If people choose to be gay, I have nothing against that. I don't understand why people need to get married to show their love to each other. Isn't living with each other enough? Marriage is overrated, dudes.
Why would you place an arbitrary limit on gay marriage? Why not being gay in general? Why tolerate differences at all? And if you think it's overrated, then surely it won't be any skin off your back if they got married. Jesus fuck
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on November 20, 2011, 09:29:50 pm
The English Exam wasn't even a month ago and we all have seem to have forgotten. The Encountering Conflict prompt mentioned something about compromise. The only reason why "Gay Marriage" is an issue is because neither side compromises.

Firstly, those in support of gay marriage often fail to see what they already have. Civil unions have basically bridged the gap between a conventional married couple and homosexuals who are within a civil union. They demand the "right" to marry, but as MJRomeo was stating, there is no such "right", marriage is not a "right", it is an undertaking defined as the union of a man, his family and a woman and her family. That is its definition. We aren't here to destroy the institution of marriage and redefine terms. Furthermore, those in support of gay marriage often fail to see why others, especially those who are religious, oppose gay marriage and homosexuality. They need to understand that just because it is right by them doesn't mean it has to be accepted by everyone. For example, I think that eating meat is ok, vegetarians might think that it's cruel to eat meat, does that mean I have the right to attack them and undermine their beliefs?

Secondly, those against gay marriage often are a little bit behind the times. Religions need to become accepting of homosexuality and that it exists, they should respect the rights of others to practice that, it's not OK to force others to take on your point of view. You want to be vegetarian, OK that's good, but others want to eat meat, so you accept that, that's the way to move forward.

I think compromise is the issue here, and from my gathering, it's a little bit lacking from both parties, but honestly, what we have is fine, sometimes you can't have everything you want, and the only way to move forward is to work with what you have, I think those in support of gay marriage should understand the privileges they have been given over the past few years and rather than complain, they should appreciate that more and more people are now becoming accepting of homosexuality.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on November 20, 2011, 09:51:45 pm
Yes, and we, as "religious" folks, do compromise. It's not like gay people are persecuted in society...
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: kensan on November 20, 2011, 09:52:40 pm
We emphasise on tolerance of differences too heavily. There has to be a limit, and gay marriage is that limit. If people choose to be gay, I have nothing against that. I don't understand why people need to get married to show their love to each other. Isn't living with each other enough? Marriage is overrated, dudes.
If people chose to be gay? It's not a choice, it was genetic I thought...

Maybe they should come up with a new word instead of marriage for homosexual couples? And at the moment are gay people being denied of any rights that heterosexual couples have (apart from being able to get married)?

But people definitely need to respect each other based on sexuality, race, gender etc...  how long is it going to take society to fully accustom to this idea?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: BigFunt on November 20, 2011, 09:57:21 pm
The English Exam wasn't even a month ago and we all have seem to have forgotten. The Encountering Conflict prompt mentioned something about compromise. The only reason why "Gay Marriage" is an issue is because neither side compromises.

Firstly, those in support of gay marriage often fail to see what they already have. Civil unions have basically bridged the gap between a conventional married couple and homosexuals who are within a civil union. They demand the "right" to marry, but as MJRomeo was stating, there is no such "right", marriage is not a "right", it is an undertaking defined as the union of a man, his family and a woman and her family. That is its definition. We aren't here to destroy the institution of marriage and redefine terms. Furthermore, those in support of gay marriage often fail to see why others, especially those who are religious, oppose gay marriage and homosexuality. They need to understand that just because it is right by them doesn't mean it has to be accepted by everyone. For example, I think that eating meat is ok, vegetarians might think that it's cruel to eat meat, does that mean I have the right to attack them and undermine their beliefs?

Secondly, those against gay marriage often are a little bit behind the times. Religions need to become accepting of homosexuality and that it exists, they should respect the rights of others to practice that, it's not OK to force others to take on your point of view. You want to be vegetarian, OK that's good, but others want to eat meat, so you accept that, that's the way to move forward.

I think compromise is the issue here, and from my gathering, it's a little bit lacking from both parties, but honestly, what we have is fine, sometimes you can't have everything you want, and the only way to move forward is to work with what you have, I think those in support of gay marriage should understand the privileges they have been given over the past few years and rather than complain, they should appreciate that more and more people are now becoming accepting of homosexuality.

this was quite an amusing read. To use your analogy, In a world of meat eaters, should a wannabe vegetarian compromise by eating smaller amounts of meat. Because as you said people "should appreciate" whats given to them. There is no issue of compromise here. What makes homosexuals less able to marry each other than, as Ninwa stated, Britney spears, whose marriage lasted 55 hours. Why are we allowing people like this to marry each other? Surely you must concede that some homosexual couples would be better candidates for marriage than some heterosexual couples. To all those who say marriage is an institution, the whole point of this argument is to CHANGE this institution.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 20, 2011, 11:05:39 pm
We emphasise on tolerance of differences too heavily. There has to be a limit, and gay marriage is that limit. If people choose to be gay, I have nothing against that. I don't understand why people need to get married to show their love to each other. Isn't living with each other enough? Marriage is overrated, dudes.

I don't understand why people need to get drunk to have fun at parties. Isn't being in the company of friends enough? Alcohol is overrated, dudes. Therefore, alcohol should be banned.

Your "logic" astounds me.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on November 20, 2011, 11:06:59 pm
I can't stand when supporters of gay marriage say its discrimination. By discrimination they mean in violation of public policy -- it discriminates in an illegal way or it violates civil rights. The problem is there is no civil right to same-sex marriage.

Without exception, every adult in Australia already has a right to marry. But everyone also has restrictions on whom they may marry -- again, without exception. These restrictions apply equally to everyone; there is no discrimination involved.

The other problem is those who compare the issue with discrimination of race. I've never understood the analogy. Race is an immutable condition.

Marriage cannot be "redefined" into a right for homosexual couples. Marriage is what it is, the monogamous union of one man and one women, nothing else or other. Restricting one's choice of a marriage partner by gender preserves marriage as an institution that  builds bridges to bring men and women together to create future generations and serve the health of society.


I've always believed that denaturing marriage is just one more instance where making something "accessible to all" destroys what it once was.

"The problem is there is no civil right to same-sex marriage"

Well that's exactly the point. Advocates are trying to make it a right. The laws of the time in 18th century America were that Blacks weren't fully considered people.

Just because it was the law at the time, did that make it right? Hell no.

You fundamental religionists will be remembered with the same bitter disdain as we think of slaveholders. Just remember that.

You're actively denying people their rights because your small brains can't stomach a lifestyle different to your own.

Quote
Marriage cannot be "redefined" into a right for homosexual couples. Marriage is what it is, the monogamous union of one man and one women, nothing else or other. Restricting one's choice of a marriage partner by gender preserves marriage as an institution that  builds bridges to bring men and women together to create future generations and serve the health of society.

No, that's the religious definition. Marriage was around long before your pathetic religion was dreamed up by desert savages who thought it was perfectly fine to allow a man who raped a woman to pay the father 50 pieces of silver to just make her his wife.

Marriage is the desire to express an official partnership between two consenting adults. That is the restriction you were talking about. The restrictions on why an adult cannot marry a child is because the child is not emotionally developed enough to make an informed, properly consensual decision on the matter.

But two gay adults? They sure as hell can.

I can't believe people in Australia who have had the benefit of such a wonderful education can still think like this. It astounds me.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 20, 2011, 11:12:50 pm
Restricting one's choice of a marriage partner by gender preserves marriage as an institution that  builds bridges to bring men and women together to create future generations and serve the health of society.

We aren't here to destroy the institution of marriage and redefine terms.

Just... wow. You guys are so predictable it's hilarious. In any discussion about gay marriage you will always get the hysterical "DESTROYING INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE" crap.

Why don't you take a look at this and tell me what's really destroying the "institution of marriage"?
http://marriage.about.com/od/entertainmen1/a/shortestmarriages.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Products/3310.0~2009~Chapter~Divorces?OpenDocument
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: nacho on November 20, 2011, 11:15:48 pm
The problem with gay marriage is that some people are fucking idiots and see it as somehow harmful/threatening.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Camo on November 20, 2011, 11:20:22 pm
>.> FFS, why can't people just accept that others can be different.

So what if someone has a different sexuality to yours? Do you find that threatening? Does it affect your sleeping patterns at night?

/end rant.

Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MJRomeo81 on November 20, 2011, 11:54:15 pm
You fundamental religionists will be remembered with the same bitter disdain as we think of slaveholders. Just remember that.
I didn't mention religion in my post once. You don't need to get married in a church. My argument has nothing to do with religion. Yet you come out guns blazing with the tiresome "stupid religion" crap.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on November 20, 2011, 11:58:32 pm
You fundamental religionists will be remembered with the same bitter disdain as we think of slaveholders. Just remember that.
I didn't mention religion in my post once. You don't need to get married in a church. My argument has nothing to do with religion. Yet you come out guns blazing with the tiresome "stupid religion" crap.

But that's where your bigotry comes from. To deny it would be to deny your "Christian values"

I'll ask you straight out then, is your opposition to gay marriage based on your religious convictions?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MJRomeo81 on November 21, 2011, 12:46:10 am
But that's where your bigotry comes from. To deny it would be to deny your "Christian values"

I'll ask you straight out then, is your opposition to gay marriage based on your religious convictions?
No. Religion doesn't shape my decision here. I feel that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman.

Sure there are some ridiculous situations today where a marriage lasts a few hours. But these idiots shouldn't be a representation of the current state of marriage.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on November 21, 2011, 12:49:05 am
But that's where your bigotry comes from. To deny it would be to deny your "Christian values"

I'll ask you straight out then, is your opposition to gay marriage based on your religious convictions?
No. Religion doesn't shape my decision here. I feel that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman.

Sure there are some ridiculous situations today where a marriage lasts a few hours. But these idiots shouldn't be a representation of the current state of marriage.

Then why do you think that marriage should only be between a man and a woman? Enumerate the negative effects of allowing gays to marry. Enumerate the positive reasons for only allowing men and women to marry.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Camo on November 21, 2011, 12:51:11 am
But that's where your bigotry comes from. To deny it would be to deny your "Christian values"

I'll ask you straight out then, is your opposition to gay marriage based on your religious convictions?
No. Religion doesn't shape my decision here. I feel that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman.

Sure there are some ridiculous situations today where a marriage lasts a few hours. But these idiots shouldn't be a representation of the current state of marriage.

I kind of agree, with you there with the bit that it shouldn't be a representation of the current state of marriage, but it shouldn't also just be limited to that of a man and a woman. Its a right, and choice in life.

Taking away people's rights in basically a form of slavery, and limitation over another human being in its own right.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on November 21, 2011, 01:05:12 am
Sure there are some ridiculous situations today where a marriage lasts a few hours. But these idiots shouldn't be a representation of the current state of marriage.

The point of my post here was to show that straight marriage has already destroyed whatever there was left of the "institution" of marriage, so you and Paul can stop using that argument to hide your bigotry behind
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Panicmode on November 21, 2011, 01:32:11 am
The only (plausible) argument I can see against gay marriage is this. It defies the "original" purpose of marriage to the state. Marriage between a man and a women is likely to produce children, who will in turn contribute to society through paying tax, creating jobs etc. As such, married couples get certain benefits in society which are afforded to them because they will (most likely) fulfill this societal role and procreate. Gay marriages offer nothing to society (in terms of societal benefits) so why should society as a whole be bound to honour them? Gays are afforded all the rights that straight people are given. They can marry any person of the opposite sex to whom they are not related and is above the age of consent. Marriage is not an intrinsic "right" and as such society has placed boundaries on it so that it serves its original purpose. Brothers and sisters aren't allowed to marry, why should this be any different for homosexuals?

This is why this argument is wrong: In today's times, it seems the problem is more about overpopulation than underpopulation. We as a nation are turning back immigrants for fear of over crowded areas and lack of resources. How then can we say that gays can't marry because they are unable to shack up and procreate? Also, I am pretty certain that the modern purpose of marriage is not to produce children. Many heterosexual couples enter marriage with the express desire not to have children. It appears that in today's times, the purpose of marriage is to join together two consenting adults who share love for each other.



Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: HERculina on November 21, 2011, 01:37:45 am
Whenever i think about homosexuality i always think about it like how some people prefer dark chocolate over normal chocolate, or like how i hate eating mango cause i don like the taste of it even though its suppose to be healthy. If someone forced me to eat mango, i would never say yes. So why should a guy have to be into women,'why cant he be into men? Theres nouing wrong with liking strawberries rather than mangoes if u get me. Haha well theres my analogy - it just all depends on what taste you have! :D
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Panicmode on November 21, 2011, 01:41:28 am
Whenever i think about homosexuality i always think about it like how some people prefer dark chocolate over normal chocolate, or like how i hate eating mango cause i don like the taste of it even though its suppose to be healthy. If someone forced me to eat mango, i would never say yes. So why should a guy have to be into women,'why cant he be into men? Theres nouing wrong with liking strawberries rather than mangoes if u get me. Haha well theres my analogy - it just all depends on what taste you have! :D

OMG, you don't like mangoes? But they're awesome! They're my favourite fruit (by far). How can you not like them? We should make a law that everyone has to eat mangoes because that's what I like and that's what's normal. Everyone that doesn't like mango will have to deal with it and either never eat any other fruit or eat mangoes.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: HERculina on November 21, 2011, 01:50:17 am
^ but Mangoes are smelly :(
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on November 21, 2011, 07:56:36 am
The only (plausible) argument I can see against gay marriage is this.
I don't even think it's a plausible argument unless you're into social engineering. If you were, we'd have a bigger problem than gay marriage

And I never understood the point 'gay people given the same rights in that they can marry a person of the opposite sex'. Why the hell would they want to do that?

Whenever i think about homosexuality i always think about it like how some people prefer dark chocolate over normal chocolate,
An analogy more suited for miscegenation teehee
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on November 21, 2011, 06:19:41 pm
Gay marriage is gay.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: REBORN on November 21, 2011, 06:22:25 pm
Gay marriage is gay.
Really? Who knew.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: kensan on November 21, 2011, 06:31:04 pm
damn christian lobby group in australia  >:(
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: nubs on November 22, 2011, 12:34:56 am
I like to take the pacifist approach, yes, I accept people who are homosexual, and believe that same-sex couples should have all the rights and privileges that married couples get. However, I also respect the institution of marriage and religions who state that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I think we need another term to describe the union between a same-sex couple. Lawfully, they should have the same rights as a married couple, but I don't think we should call it marriage. Civil unions, I support :)

By tradition, marriage is kinda defined as the union b/w a man and a woman and also their families...etc.

I'm not too sure about that
If we really want to establish equality for homosexuals, then I think the only way to do so is by legalising gay marriage, and calling it marriage - not anything else

If we do call it something else, there will probably be some sort of stigma attached to that word, and as a result it will never be viewed as something that is completely synonymous to marriage.

Some gay people may feel as if their relationships are not as respected or as important as those bound by marriage, and as a result the disparity may remain. It may seem petty, but the word 'marriage' is perceived to be so much more symbolic(right word?) than a 'civil union'

Civil unions may be seen as less significant and not as legitimate (for lack of a better word)
To give gays a feeling of complete acceptance and equality, civil unions - although they are an important step - are simply not enough in my opinion
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Russ on November 22, 2011, 09:12:53 am
Yeah that. You probably can't force the Church to marry them (and whether you should is another matter), but there's no reason to create two distinct types of "marriage" and claim them to be separate but equal
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Panicmode on November 22, 2011, 09:31:35 am
Yeah that. You probably can't force the Church to marry them (and whether you should is another matter), but there's no reason to create two distinct types of "marriage" and claim them to be separate but equal

Because we all know Jim Crow laws in America show that when discrimination is concerned it is possible to have two facilities separate but equal.... Oh wait.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on November 22, 2011, 11:08:39 am
Yeah that. You probably can't force the Church to marry them (and whether you should is another matter), but there's no reason to create two distinct types of "marriage" and claim them to be separate but equal
I'm pretty sure that there are 'progressive' churches who would marry them but that's a religious institution problem not a government issue.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: mark_alec on November 22, 2011, 06:59:54 pm
If we really want to establish equality for homosexuals, then I think the only way to do so is by legalising gay marriage, and calling it marriage - not anything else
What about abolishing any government sanctioning of *any* marriage? All they should care about is if people cohabit and consider themselves partners.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Random_Guy on December 03, 2011, 06:03:20 pm
I can't believe it has been supported by the ALP. This is a dark day in Australia's history.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: lexitu on December 03, 2011, 06:20:45 pm
Yes what a horrible day it is when politicians listen to their constituents!
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on December 03, 2011, 06:30:34 pm
you know, why not just make marriage a ceremonial issue and just have "civil union" under laws, then there would be no religious stigma attached to it :S
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Eriny on December 13, 2011, 05:54:07 pm
I saw this recently: http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/how-gay-rights-is-nothing-like-legalizing-beastali?s=mobile
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on December 13, 2011, 09:54:15 pm
I have a whole new radical idea, why don't we make EVERYONE civil unions, both hetrosexual and homosexual, then we won't have to worry about the churches chiming in. We can leave "marriage" as a ceremonial issue rather than a legal issue

Are there any issues with this model?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on December 13, 2011, 09:57:57 pm
If gay people got married, would I be able to marry my waifu?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: jane1234 on December 13, 2011, 10:24:30 pm
I have a whole new radical idea, why don't we make EVERYONE civil unions, both hetrosexual and homosexual, then we won't have to worry about the churches chiming in. We can leave "marriage" as a ceremonial issue rather than a legal issue

Are there any issues with this model?

Well, then you kind of take away the whole point of a marragie as a legal union. I don't think anyone would be too happy with this, it's like removing marraige altogether and leaving it as nothing more than a meaningless ceremony. I don't think many people will be too fond of that idea...
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on December 13, 2011, 10:31:45 pm
But that's what might be good, because marriage has such historical and religious connotations, why don't we just have "Civil Unions" as the accepted legal union for all, rather than marriage
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: nubs on December 13, 2011, 10:36:24 pm
'Marriage' itself will bear much significance even if it is just a 'ceremonial issue', because, as you said, it 'has such historical and religious connotations'. Also, we want to establish equality without pissing off as many people as possible. Getting rid of marriage altogether may upset a lot of people
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Camo on December 13, 2011, 10:36:35 pm
But that's what might be good, because marriage has such historical and religious connotations, why don't we just have "Civil Unions" as the accepted legal union for all, rather than marriage

Quotes stupid people. But, but, but I want a marriage not a civil union!

Really, its just stupid.

Everybody has the right to marriage in a perfect society, just some people don't believe these people should have rights. And doesn't everybody have the right to rights, amirite?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: CaiTheHuman on December 17, 2011, 09:47:49 pm
Human rights is a contentious issue as well in term of marriage rights. Look we all want to see more equality and a more peaceful society. But there are so many divisions in Australian Society. What was suppose to be a secular government is now a government influenced by religion. This is annoying as noone gets anywhere with religion in the way.

However everyone is free to their opinion. If gay marriage is legalized it will spark an uproar due to the influence of religion in Australian Society. Christian Communities who feel uncomfortable to let gays marry will get sued for discrimination. A coalition force could easily revoke any sort of same-sex marriage agreement if they came into power. However people get over this and they learn to accept this, remember when they banned interracial marriage in the States. It was overturned and people are okay with it, even tho their may be minority oppositon towards those unions.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 12:08:30 am
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.

Of course there are!

Logically valid, but the soundness of the premises, and therefore the conclusions, can be questioned and criticized.

For example, the argument presupposes God and it also presupposes that marriage is a matter of the Church. The veracity of these presuppositions is questionable.

With re: to incest, it has been suggested that greater degrees of genetic variance stops transmission of defective alleles. However, there is negligible reasoning really to prohibit incest purely on these grounds; it is prohibited because of the potential of sexual grooming and exploitation in the familial situation. Furthermore, in some jurisdictions, it is deemed incestuous to have relations between say a step-father and a step-daughter because an "incestuous" relation is qualified by the social proximity of the couple and not the genetic. It has everything to do with consent and reduction of exploitation of the minor.

The argument of bestiality is absurd. An animal cannot consent or have the cognizance to enter a formal and explicit relationship. The comparison of gay marriage to zoophilia is just some droll hyperbole employed by people who cannot form a coherent argument and wish to cheapen the oppositions arguments with tasteless analogies.

Polygamy is another issue altogether. About the most biologically sound argument; there have been studies done to suggest that the penises of homo sapiens are shaped the way they are so as to scrape out the semen of rival males. Also, it has been shown that men have higher levels of seminal virility in their ejaculates when watching pornography involving more than one male. Men seem to be naturally competitive. I am not sure how well that bodes with our cerebral ethical codes though.  ;D
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on January 11, 2012, 09:00:07 am
yeah no, an argument from god is not rational
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 09:43:57 am
yeah no, an argument from god is not rational

Not quite sure how you use the word "rational". I was using it as consistent with reason (a basis) or valid logic.

Nonetheless, I never said I endorsed it.  ;)
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: aes_999 on January 11, 2012, 09:54:38 am
^Another type of unionship ceremony like marriage should be created and should be used exclusively by homosexual couples.

That's the problem, homosexual couples want marriage just like normal couples, not some other unionship ceremony.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 10:00:00 am
Firstly, the passage in the Bible where the writer states that homosexuality is a sin is merely the opinion of the author writing on behalf of the named prophet. It is not the prophet's opinion nor Jesus' nor God's.

How does that bode with Sodom and Gomorrah? 

Quote
Now upon reading various religious textbooks, the issue has been dissected thoroughly by the Roman Catholic Church.

And they still want to condemn people apparently biologically "faulted" by the grand deity himself. Does not sound too convincing to me.  ;)

That's the problem, homosexual couples want marriage just like normal couples, not some other unionship ceremony.

Why should they want any other form of unionship other than what makes them an equal to everyone else in the country they live in?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 10:07:55 am
However, it makes me feel better as a person knowing I can be gay and still believe in my God.

Fair enough, but it seems counterproductive to me. Each to their own.

Quote
The point is in today's society, marriage has been separated from religion, but the definition has not changed. That's why I am all for another unionship ceremony.

So why are religious groups lobbying to have a say in politics? If you are going to bother with a new union ceremony, I do not see why you could not just change the definition if the majority are for the change.

C'est la vie.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on January 11, 2012, 10:16:04 am
tl;dr :P
through research

I humbly invite you to include this entire document in your research. Skip the first 2 questions.

http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/atheism
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on January 11, 2012, 10:21:38 am
tl;dr :P
through research

I humbly invite you to include this entire document in your research. Skip the first 2 questions.

http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/atheism

I found this highly offensive, enwiabe. I post my views in a civilised manner and then I'm attacked for believing in my faith. This argument is not about religion, it's about gay marriage. Let me believe in what I want to. Don't force your beliefs on others. I didn't force mine on you.

I didn't force my views on you in the slightest. I presented an alternative view and requested that you read up on it. At no point did I command you to click the link and read its contents.

I am simply saying that if you truly want to claim that you have researched the topic thoroughly, then you need to properly digest the opposing viewpoint. Otherwise all you've done is read a book that says god is true because the book says god is true. The very definition of circular logic.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 10:25:28 am
I think we should bother with another unionship ceremony because you cannot change the definition of marriage in one country only.

Why not?

Quote
I believe that homosexuals should be treated equally, but not the same.

Quote
e·qual·i·ty/iˈkwälitē/
Noun:   

    The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
    The condition of being equal in number or amount.

Synonyms:   
parity - par - evenness - sameness - uniformity
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on January 11, 2012, 10:26:25 am
Quote
through research, I have come to a conclusion that God does not 'hate' homosexuals.

Firstly, the passage in the Bible where the writer states that homosexuality is a sin is merely the opinion of the author writing on behalf of the named prophet. It is not the prophet's opinion nor Jesus' nor God's. Now upon reading various religious textbooks, the issue has been dissected thoroughly by the Roman Catholic Church.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholicism
In Roman Catholicism, homosexual acts are considered contrary to natural law and sinful, while homosexual desires are considered "disordered" but not themselves sinful.

If you want an article that cites specific passages, http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Quote
They do acknowledge that people do not have a choice over homosexuality and furthermore have said that it is only a sin if you take part in any sexual conduct outside of marriage (this just happens to encompass gay sex).

Nope
Quote from: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
11. It has been argued that the homosexual orientation in certain cases is not the result of deliberate choice; and so the homosexual person would then have no choice but to behave in a homosexual fashion. Lacking freedom, such a person, even if engaged in homosexual activity, would not be culpable.

Here, the Church's wise moral tradition is necessary since it warns against generalizations in judging individual cases. In fact, circumstances may exist, or may have existed in the past, which would reduce or remove the culpability of the individual in a given instance; or other circumstances may increase it. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God's liberating grace.

Quote
Because of the way I've been raised, I believe the term 'marriage' is defined as the unionship of a man and a woman. It has nothing to do with its religious origin as marriage has now been separated from religion. To me, changing the marriage act to include gay marriage is like saying that all hares can now be classified as rabbits. So what do I believe should happen? As stupid as this sounds, I think another type of unionship ceremony like marriage should be created and should be used exclusively by homosexual couples. Being classified as same-sex de facto relationships is not enough.

Separate but equal... sounds familiar
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: chocolatedaddy on January 11, 2012, 10:37:15 am

The point is in today's society, marriage has been separated from religion, but the definition has not changed. That's why I am all for another unionship ceremony.

Marriage was never a religious institution to begin with. Marriage predates recorded history. The ancient Greeks has marriage. All that was required was mutual agreement and for the couple to regard each other as partners. Why would another union ship ceremony be necessary when a Korean guy can marry a pillow. http://wakpo.com/articles/neat-stuff/korean-otaku-marries-his-anime-pillow-fate-testarossa. They didn't have a separate union ship ceremony. They wanted the real deal.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on January 11, 2012, 10:43:36 am
^ that dota be added to all high school curriculums

SORRY OFF TOPIC

um.

Quote
Look, as I've said earlier, when it comes to religion, different people will interpret things differently.
But surely the word of the Holy See is as close as you can get to the true word of god?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 10:45:25 am
I think the point has been made, guys. Relax a bit.  :P
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 10:57:52 am
Not necessarily. He is not God.
He?  ???
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on January 11, 2012, 10:58:07 am
^ that dota be added to all high school curriculums

SORRY OFF TOPIC

um.

Quote
Look, as I've said earlier, when it comes to religion, different people will interpret things differently.
But surely the word of the Holy See is as close as you can get to the true word of god?

Not necessarily. He is not God.

But how do you personally know what the correct interpretation of God's word is?

Technically, only God knows the correct interpretation of his words. So if you claim to know the correct interpretation of God's word (that he doesn't hate gays), haven't you, in that moment, become god?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 11:00:46 am
Why is Christianity always assumed "right"?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 11:05:58 am
you obviously got 50 in bio by using your power over the examiners :P LOL!

but anyway, on a more serious note, don't you think society at large has a pro-Christian and anti-other-religion sort of mentality?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 11:09:49 am
but anyway, on a more serious note, don't you think society at large has a pro-Christian and anti-other-religion sort of mentality?

There are more Muslims than Christians in the world, I believe.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 11:16:38 am
There are more Muslims than Christians in the world, I believe.

No, I was referring more so towards Australian society, there are some athiests who still think that somehow Christianity is more "normal" than say Islam.

And to address other points, yes, this is an issue about Gay Marriage, but it's hard not to involve religion when the the concepts of marriage and religion have been united over the years
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 11:26:49 am
No, I was referring more so towards Australian society, there are some athiests who still think that somehow Christianity is more "normal" than say Islam.

By saying "society at large", you did not make it clear to me whether you were talking about Australian society or globally. Atheists of Australia predominantly come from a Judeo-Christian background; Australian custom and law is steeped in such practices also. Most atheists celebrate Christmas as a part of tradition and so forth. Our culture has been largely shaped by Christianity and to a lesser extent Islam and other faiths.

So, in summary, that is because Christianity is more normalized in Australian culture than Islam.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: abd123 on January 11, 2012, 11:33:50 am
They are already gay and lesbian couples scattered out throughout Australia. They might as well be homosexual weddings happening.

Homosexual Weddings will possibly happen in every western countries e.g UK, Aus, Nz, USA, Canada, but not foreign countries.

The abrahamic religons e.g. Christainity, Islam and Judaism will not ever approve gay marriages. I guess some parts of the world like; Middle East, North Africa ... etc that are overruled by these abrahamic religons... etc will not ever approve homosexual weddings. 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 11:39:05 am
Hmm, it's interesting because even though we're meant to be a secular society, there's a lot of Christian values and traditions which have been ingrained into the way our society operates. Generally I think Buddhism is becoming more and more accepted, but that's because it's a religion which is simple and very easy to understand (some of my relatives are Buddhists, some are Christians) - but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 11:48:19 am
Hmm, it's interesting because even though we're meant to be a secular society, there's a lot of Christian values and traditions which have been ingrained into the way our society operates. Generally I think Buddhism is becoming more and more accepted, but that's because it's a religion which is simple and very easy to understand (some of my relatives are Buddhists, some are Christians) - but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S

I do not think our Constitution makes any claim to being secular, but it does allow freedom of religious practice and the right to take public office despite any form of religious affiliation (which seems to include nonreligious sympathies). However, I think in practice we try and separate our State and Church. At least, this is what many are a proponent of. Buddhism is interesting. I have spoken to many psychologists who say that it is harmonious with psychological findings, but I have never really taken psychology too seriously. My interest are in neuroscience more than psychological theories. Sam Harris, a notable secularist and neuroscientist, is well known for taking part in meditation and otherwise considered religious practices of Buddhism, but he stands by meditation and so forth coinciding with his atheistic views.

A lot of the anti-Islamic culture in Australia is because of the recent terrorism movement - as if it has not existed before this current epoch - and the focus on the Taliban and its radical implementation of Sharia. However, Islam seems to be more prone to factional division and civil conflict than other faiths.

I am now curious as to how Buddhism views homosexuality.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ninwa on January 11, 2012, 11:53:02 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexual_orientation

really interesting read

they are the hippies of religion, lol
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: 86 on January 11, 2012, 11:53:59 am
Hmm, it's interesting because even though we're meant to be a secular society, there's a lot of Christian values and traditions which have been ingrained into the way our society operates. Generally I think Buddhism is becoming more and more accepted, but that's because it's a religion which is simple and very easy to understand (some of my relatives are Buddhists, some are Christians) - but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S

Quite frankly I don't really care. As I've grown I've come to gradually separate myself from religion because I find it just a tad annoying and gets in the way of things. I feel less restricted when I disregard the influence of religion. And when people try and convert me by knocking on my door or approaching me in public? Please, I don't need it. Which then comes to gay and lesbian marriage - let them. How are they any different from heterosexual marriage and relationships? If we can be happy, why can't they? They're still people, they're absolutely no different a part from their sexual preferences, which is their personal business to begin with.

 ???
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 11:54:59 am
I'm not sure whether the constitution does or not, but the fact that our State and Church are separate leads us to being secular, although I might be wrong on this? Someone clarify?

Hmm, I'm not too sure as to the connection between Buddhism and Psychology, not an expert in those areas, so I won't say much.

I, personally, don't think it has to do with the recent terrorism movement at all, like sure there's hatred towards the Taliban and Sharia law, but I doubt that the general public has a great understanding of what Sharia Law even is, or what fundamentalist Islam entails. And it's not as if there hasn't been sort of tensions between "westerners" and Islamics in the past (in Australia).

I think Islam is more prone to factional division and civil conflict because there's different types, like the Shi'a and the Sunni, for example, I guess it's similar to the Catholic v Anglican tension once present in Ireland.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 12:03:06 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexual_orientation

really interesting read

they are the hippies of religion, lol

Quote
Buddhism teaches that sensual enjoyment and desire in general, and sexual pleasure in particular, are hindrances to enlightenment, and inferior to the kinds of pleasure (see, e.g. pīti, a Pāli word often translated as "rapture") that are integral to the practice of jhāna.

Sounds very Socratic. I read about half of the entire entry; I will have to give the rest a read when I finished with lunch. Cheers! :)

I'm not sure whether the constitution does or not, but the fact that our State and Church are separate leads us to being secular, although I might be wrong on this? Someone clarify?

Hmm, I'm not too sure as to the connection between Buddhism and Psychology, not an expert in those areas, so I won't say much.

I, personally, don't think it has to do with the recent terrorism movement at all, like sure there's hatred towards the Taliban and Sharia law, but I doubt that the general public has a great understanding of what Sharia Law even is, or what fundamentalist Islam entails. And it's not as if there hasn't been sort of tensions between "westerners" and Islamics in the past (in Australia).

I think Islam is more prone to factional division and civil conflict because there's different types, like the Shi'a and the Sunni, for example, I guess it's similar to the Catholic v Anglican tension once present in Ireland.

Please use quotes in future.

1. It is relatively separate, but you still have issues such as the government endorsing religious mentors in public schools. And that religion has a very strong hold on politics.

2. I think the hyperbolic tripe spun on the media channels has greatly influenced things and the perspectives of people.

3. One of the reasons. There is also the problem of no centralized doctrinal body, per se, and just Mullahs extolling their own spin of the Hadith or Qur'an.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Special At Specialist on January 11, 2012, 02:26:49 pm
You don't realise how secular Australia is until you compare us to another country like England or the USA. The USA has a lot more religious people (predominantly christian) than us and England is practically run by a Monarch with archaic religious beliefs (their obsession over historic practices and values has always seemed somewhat inferior to me).

Whilst I respect christian beliefs and morality, I oppose hatred. The bible has so many interpretations of what is okay and what isn't, but as a general rule: the more you take the bible literally, the more hatred you're going to spread.

Stick, if you don't mind me judging, I would say you're a fairly laid-back catholic. You believe the religion and the existence of a god, but you have your own opinion on it which opposes many others. One of the main ideologies which you oppose is homophobia, and I respect that. But let's face it: most catholics dislike gay people, so you are not the typical sheep.

I support gay marriage for the same reason that I defend minorities: I have empathy for other people. I can just imagine the pain, the torment and the fear that many innocent gay people face on a daily basis, most of which are inflicted upon by judgemental hypocrits. Bullying is a problem and it needs to stop. Only by recognising and acting upon the desires of others can we solve this controversial problem once and for all.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: aes_999 on January 11, 2012, 02:32:01 pm
Beg to differ when you say normal Catholics DISLIKE gay people.
They just believe that being gay is wrong, and obviously they're entitled to their beliefs.
It doesn't mean that they hate gay people.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: paulsterio on January 11, 2012, 02:36:34 pm
Please use quotes in future.

1. It is relatively separate, but you still have issues such as the government endorsing religious mentors in public schools. And that religion has a very strong hold on politics.

2. I think the hyperbolic tripe spun on the media channels has greatly influenced things and the perspectives of people.

3. One of the reasons. There is also the problem of no centralized doctrinal body, per se, and just Mullahs extolling their own spin of the Hadith or Qur'an.

Hmm, that's true, but like what's your opinion on say the banning of the Burqa in public places in France, is that a form of forcing Muslims to follow the majority's sense of normalcy, or is the Burqa really a threat to security?

I support gay marriage for the same reason that I defend minorities: I have empathy for other people. I can just imagine the pain, the torment and the fear that many innocent gay people face on a daily basis, most of which are inflicted upon by judgemental hypocrits. Bullying is a problem and it needs to stop. Only by recognising and acting upon the desires of others can we solve this controversial problem once and for all.

Let's analyse the persuasive language! :P
In this little quote, you've managed to use a hyperbole which portrays gay people as in need of help as well as attacked those who are not in favour of gay marriage, likening them to bullies, who are often frowned upon by society. By referring to the "desires of others", you appeal to the reader's sense of equality by suggesting that others' desires are of great importance. By portraying yourself as empathetic, you position readers to take on your argument, encouraging them to see your view as one of empathy and understanding :D
(Sorry, I just had to do that :P - It was so persuasive! :P )

In all honesty, I think you've exaggerated a bit here, they probably do not go through torment and fear on a daily basis. Gay marriage isn't really a great issue, the media has no doubt blown it up beyond what it's supposed to be. I have a friend who is gay and he leads somewhat of a normal life, even though he agrees that there is a negative view of gay people in society, he has never experienced anything which has made him felt uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 02:47:20 pm
Hmm, that's true, but like what's your opinion on say the banning of the Burqa in public places in France, is that a form of forcing Muslims to follow the majority's sense of normalcy, or is the Burqa really a threat to security?

If we have laws stating that you cannot conceal your identity in a public place, and that is the prevailing legal precedent, banning the burqa makes sense. If it is reasonable, or poses a risk to anyone, I have no clue and is another question. I am not sure how many times burqas have been used in crimes or been detrimental to witness/criminal identification.

It would be forcing Muslims to adhere to the laws that exist. They are not exempt from law because their religion says so. Why cannot Muslim women wear the hijab (without the niqāb)?

Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Stick on January 11, 2012, 03:17:36 pm
You don't realise how secular Australia is until you compare us to another country like England or the USA. The USA has a lot more religious people (predominantly christian) than us and England is practically run by a Monarch with archaic religious beliefs (their obsession over historic practices and values has always seemed somewhat inferior to me).

Whilst I respect christian beliefs and morality, I oppose hatred. The bible has so many interpretations of what is okay and what isn't, but as a general rule: the more you take the bible literally, the more hatred you're going to spread.

Stick, if you don't mind me judging, I would say you're a fairly laid-back catholic. You believe the religion and the existence of a god, but you have your own opinion on it which opposes many others. One of the main ideologies which you oppose is homophobia, and I respect that. But let's face it: most catholics dislike gay people, so you are not the typical sheep.

I support gay marriage for the same reason that I defend minorities: I have empathy for other people. I can just imagine the pain, the torment and the fear that many innocent gay people face on a daily basis, most of which are inflicted upon by judgemental hypocrits. Bullying is a problem and it needs to stop. Only by recognising and acting upon the desires of others can we solve this controversial problem once and for all.

Yeah, I am fairly laid-back. ;)

I would much prefer if homosexuals had their own unionship ceremony, but I guess legalising gay marriage wouldn't be too bad either.

EDIT: 100th post! :D
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 03:18:51 pm

Yeah, I am fairly laid-back. ;)

I would much prefer if homosexuals had their own unionship ceremony, but I guess legalising gay marriage wouldn't be too bad either be great.

For the record, I respect you, I just do not agree.  ;)
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mao on January 11, 2012, 06:36:56 pm
Yeah, I am fairly laid-back. ;)
That is a very good attitude to have, especially when it comes to this kind of debate. I find 'evangelist' atheists to be equally annoying, if not more annoying, than an evangelist theist.

Quote
I would much prefer if homosexuals had their own unionship ceremony, but I guess legalising gay marriage wouldn't be too bad either.
I understand what you are saying. From my understanding, an important part of the ceremony is where the couple receives blessing. In Christianity, this blessing is from God; in Chinese culture, you seek blessing from the Jade Emperor and whatever other deities that happen to be fashionable to your family (there's a lot of them); I imagine there is something similar in Islamic cultures too.

I would even go so far with saying atheists do not have traditional marriages. In that sense, same-sex marriages are no different.

Maybe religions should push to separate their marriage from the typical marriage, as opposed to excluding other types of unions.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 11, 2012, 10:11:20 pm
\ but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S

Are you being sarcastic..? it's hard to tell on the internet, if not well then the propapagnda instigated by George Bush and his minions should answer why there are alot of anti- islamist views, i just wish people would look into the religion and read for themselves rather than listen to a bunch of extremists and the jewish owned news stations. 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on January 11, 2012, 10:32:32 pm
\ but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S
read for themselves

First I sorta semi-agreed... or at least saw where you're coming from...

\ but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S
bunch of extremists and the jewish owned news stations. 

Lol what? Goodbye credibility.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: ham4 on January 11, 2012, 10:42:19 pm
\ but there seems to be a sort of anti-Islam view that some people have, idk why really :S

Are you being sarcastic..? it's hard to tell on the internet, if not well then the propapagnda instigated by George Bush and his minions should answer why there are alot of anti- islamist views, i just wish people would look into the religion and read for themselves rather than listen to a bunch of extremists and the jewish owned news stations.

I don't think you're giving the Australian public enough credit sunintherain. What you're saying might have been true on September 12th 2001, and perhaps even for one or two years after that. But now I think muslims are just as accepted as any other group in Australia. Go down to Brunswick or Fitzroy or Coburg or Northcote and you'll see areas where muslims are a very large minority ethnic group and they get on just fine and face very little (if any) anti islamic violence. I would say we have accepted Islam as a community.

Also, our media industry does not have a strong jewish influence. That's alleged to be America... and even over there it's hardly a significant factor.

As for the topic at hand, I think the only valid argument against gay marriage was that it held religious significance, and it would infringe on the beliefs and theocratic rights of Christians to allow gay people to be married (theocratic rights being a moral concept rather than a legal one). However, I don't think that marriage has to hold any real religious significance nowadays, atheists can get married with a celebrant if they choose, therefore not allowing homosexuals to marry is simply an infringement on their rights to equality and so they should be allowed to marry.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 11, 2012, 10:48:57 pm
Also, our media industry does not have a strong jewish influence. That's alleged to be America... and even over there it's hardly a significant factor.
I think your forgetting the factor that America has huge amounts of influence on Australia
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Truck on January 11, 2012, 10:58:53 pm
Also, our media industry does not have a strong jewish influence. That's alleged to be America... and even over there it's hardly a significant factor.
I think your forgetting the factor that America has huge amounts of influence on Australia

1) What does that have to do with anything ?
2) Even if it was to do with the American media, how do "Jews" have anything to do with it lol?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 11, 2012, 11:05:22 pm
... I am not even sure how we got on to Jews.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: MarindaMarco on January 11, 2012, 11:10:10 pm
Also, our media industry does not have a strong jewish influence. That's alleged to be America... and even over there it's hardly a significant factor.
I think your forgetting the factor that America has huge amounts of influence on Australia
Also, our media industry does not have a strong jewish influence. That's alleged to be America... and even over there it's hardly a significant factor.
I think your forgetting the factor that America has huge amounts of influence on Australia
Okay, that's a fair statement. But anti-Islamic sentiment hasn't been fueled by some secret zionist agenda, it's been fueled by good ol' American patriotism. And, like I said, this may have been a heavy influence on September 12th and the couple of years afterwards, but Australians are not stupid people. Any anti-Islamic mindset that may have existed in the early 2000s is largely gone as we have realised that we're not the white knights we thought we were.

Look at our reaction to the arab spring for example. Did Australians see a 'bunch of no good arab rebels stirring things up' or a 'grass roots uprising of oppressed people looking for rights and freedoms!'?

With the exception of fears over the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and Al Qaeda in Yemen the media portrayed the arab world and muslims as good, normal people with similar values to us, and that's how we perceived them.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Special At Specialist on January 11, 2012, 11:23:03 pm
These statistics might not be 100% accurate, but they are close enough:

In the USA:
76% Christianity
15% Atheism
9% Other

In Australia:
64% Christianity
19% Atheism
17% Other

If religion is the largest opposing factor of gay marriage, then why has gay marriage been legalised in parts of the USA but not in Australia?
Is it because Americans pride themselves on living in a "free country" so much that they will fight for their rights?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Camo on January 11, 2012, 11:26:55 pm
These statistics might not be 100% accurate, but they are close enough:

In the USA:
76% Christianity
15% Atheism
9% Other

In Australia:
64% Christianity
19% Atheism
17% Other

If religion is the largest opposing factor of gay marriage, then why has gay marriage been legalised in parts of the USA but not in Australia?
Is it because Americans pride themselves on living in a "free country" so much that they will fight for their rights?

I never knew our Christianity percentage was so high.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Special At Specialist on January 11, 2012, 11:34:36 pm
These statistics might not be 100% accurate, but they are close enough:

In the USA:
76% Christianity
15% Atheism
9% Other

In Australia:
64% Christianity
19% Atheism
17% Other

If religion is the largest opposing factor of gay marriage, then why has gay marriage been legalised in parts of the USA but not in Australia?
Is it because Americans pride themselves on living in a "free country" so much that they will fight for their rights?

I never knew our Christianity percentage was so high.

It's probably a bit less by now, since that census was taken in 2007, but here is the exact quote:
Quote
In 2007, 64% of the population claimed at least nominal adherence to the Christian faith, although less than a quarter of those attended church weekly.
Quoted from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 11, 2012, 11:49:19 pm

Okay, that's a fair statement. But anti-Islamic sentiment hasn't been fueled by some secret zionist agenda, it's been fueled by good ol' American patriotism. And, like I said, this may have been a heavy influence on September 12th and the couple of years afterwards, but Australians are not stupid people. Any anti-Islamic mindset that may have existed in the early 2000s is largely gone as we have realised that we're not the white knights we thought we were.

Look at our reaction to the arab spring for example. Did Australians see a 'bunch of no good arab rebels stirring things up' or a 'grass roots uprising of oppressed people looking for rights and freedoms!'?

With the exception of fears over the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and Al Qaeda in Yemen the media portrayed the arab world and muslims as good, normal people with similar values to us, and that's how we perceived them.
[/quote]
 
I don't think Australians are stupid, but my irritation stems from the fact that most people have pre-conceived ideas about Islam based on iterapertations developed by the media regardles of whether they discriminate against muslims or not, the beliefs about it being
sexist ect. This was never meant to be an anti-Jew thing I was just stating and extreme theory believed by some.

In responce to the topic, I think that there is no real point in bringing a new sort-of union for homosexuals as it would just be the same as marriage, in all honesty marriage itself is not even all that necessary. It is just a peice of paper stating that two people are dedicated to each other, it does not protect from a couple from fights nor other hurdles they may face as a couple.
As for why gay marriage is yet to be legalised is because society isn't really ready for it, there are many such as myself who don't think it really matters, but I think as a whole I don't think society really wants it becuase if they did it would be legal.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mao on January 12, 2012, 12:14:19 am
but I think as a whole I don't think society really wants it becuase if they did it would be legal.

I don't quite understand what you mean. How is the legality of gay marriage a problem for the majority of people?
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 12, 2012, 11:29:44 am
but I think as a whole I don't think society really wants it becuase if they did it would be legal.

I don't quite understand what you mean. How is the legality of gay marriage a problem for the majority of people?

I just think that as people where previously stating it has a lot to do with religion and people's morals, I know some people who aren't against homosexuals but the idea of them marrying is 'flinch- worthy' to them. There are still many people who are not ready to see being homosexual taken one step further - But I don't know everybody, I'm just assuming that most people don't want it becuase otherwise it would be legal.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mech on January 12, 2012, 04:09:10 pm
I just think that as people where previously stating it has a lot to do with religion and people's morals, I know some people who aren't against homosexuals but the idea of them marrying is 'flinch- worthy' to them. There are still many people who are not ready to see being homosexual taken one step further - But I don't know everybody, I'm just assuming that most people don't want it becuase otherwise it would be legal.

Not quite how a representative democracy works. For example, if the carbon tax went to poll - from my knowledge, it has been a while since I looked at stats - it would not get a majority vote. Is it being pushed forward? Yes, despite this discrepancy between the populace and the representatives (parliamentarians).

My question for you is - Is it justified to deny a group of people equal legal rights (as we have defined marriage as a secular institution, not religious) simply because some others feel "flinch-worthy" towards them? It seems a poor argument. It is the equivalent of someone proclaiming they feel threatened or have intense reactions when thinking about X ethnicity doing Y, therefore, they should not be entitled to Y which we have.
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 13, 2012, 09:25:53 pm
I just think that as people where previously stating it has a lot to do with religion and people's morals, I know some people who aren't against homosexuals but the idea of them marrying is 'flinch- worthy' to them. There are still many people who are not ready to see being homosexual taken one step further - But I don't know everybody, I'm just assuming that most people don't want it becuase otherwise it would be legal.

Not quite how a representative democracy works. For example, if the carbon tax went to poll - from my knowledge, it has been a while since I looked at stats - it would not get a majority vote. Is it being pushed forward? Yes, despite this discrepancy between the populace and the representatives (parliamentarians).

My question for you is - Is it justified to deny a group of people equal legal rights (as we have defined marriage as a secular institution, not religious) simply because some others feel "flinch-worthy" towards them? It seems a poor argument. It is the equivalent of someone proclaiming they feel threatened or have intense reactions when thinking about X ethnicity doing Y, therefore, they should not be entitled to Y which we have.

Look i'm not against it I honestly don't think it matters if people want to marry thier money or car let alone somebody of the same sex. And yes it being flinch-worthy is a poor argument, again not my oppinion I was stating why some others I know are agianst it. 
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on January 14, 2012, 08:35:48 pm
In responce to the topic, I think that there is no real point in bringing a new sort-of union for homosexuals as it would just be the same as marriage, in all honesty marriage itself is not even all that necessary. It is just a peice of paper stating that two people are dedicated to each other, it does not protect from a couple from fights nor other hurdles they may face as a couple.

Then just give it to them
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: Mariammm on January 14, 2012, 08:42:56 pm
There is no valid/rational argument against gay marriage.

This entirely.

I don't think its the rationalism that makes people disagree... but religion that steps in the way... most people are like, 'well yeah, that makes sense' but then they go, 'wait a minute, my religion tells me its wrong' - its honestly an internal moral conflict - either to think logically and abandon all the values instilled in them since birth or to choose to keep the word of their god as their principle guidelines
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: sunintherain on January 18, 2012, 12:28:08 am

[/quote]

I don't think its the rationalism that makes people disagree... but religion that steps in the way... most people are like, 'well yeah, that makes sense' but then they go, 'wait a minute, my religion tells me its wrong' - its honestly an internal moral conflict - either to think logically and abandon all the values instilled in them since birth or to choose to keep the word of their god as their principle guidelines
[/quote]
 
I agree completely this pretty much seems to be a lot of people's reasoning
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: enwiabe on January 24, 2012, 03:31:40 pm
I just think that as people where previously stating it has a lot to do with religion and people's morals, I know some people who aren't against homosexuals but the idea of them marrying is 'flinch- worthy' to them. There are still many people who are not ready to see being homosexual taken one step further - But I don't know everybody, I'm just assuming that most people don't want it becuase otherwise it would be legal.

Not quite how a representative democracy works. For example, if the carbon tax went to poll - from my knowledge, it has been a while since I looked at stats - it would not get a majority vote. Is it being pushed forward? Yes, despite this discrepancy between the populace and the representatives (parliamentarians).

My question for you is - Is it justified to deny a group of people equal legal rights (as we have defined marriage as a secular institution, not religious) simply because some others feel "flinch-worthy" towards them? It seems a poor argument. It is the equivalent of someone proclaiming they feel threatened or have intense reactions when thinking about X ethnicity doing Y, therefore, they should not be entitled to Y which we have.

Look i'm not against it I honestly don't think it matters if people want to marry thier money or car let alone somebody of the same sex. And yes it being flinch-worthy is a poor argument, again not my oppinion I was stating why some others I know are agianst it. 

Louis C.K. expounds this point brilliantly in this youtube clip. To anyone opposed to same-sex marriage, just listen at how hard reasonable people laugh at you and your stupidity. You're on the wrong side of history, stop being bigots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtJ_sDRRVVI&feature=related
Title: Re: Controversial Issue: Gay Marriage
Post by: JellyDonut on January 24, 2012, 10:08:52 pm
Fuck yeah, I love Louis CK